Have you ever wondered what the difference is between the timing of the steps of salsa on 2 (also known as “mambo” or “New York style salsa”) and Cuban son? Some people would argue that the timing for both dances is not exactly the same. That the basic steps in both dances are done using different timing. Perfunctorily, that seems to be the case. The majority of on2 salsa dancers count 1,2,3 and 5,6,7 while people who dance son count 2,3,4 and 6,7,8.
But is there really a difference in the timing of the steps, given that both dances are danced on the 2?
If this is a question you’ve been having, sit forward and pay attention. I’m about to drop that knowledge.
First, let’s examine son dancing. Son is danced on contratiempo timing, which literally means “against time,” but what it really means in musical terms is “on the off-beat”. In music, off-beats are the 2nd and 4th beats. (For a more detailed explanation click here and go to the “On-beat and off-beat” section.) Dancing “on the off-beat” means emphasizing the 2 and 4 counts. Therefore, if we were to dance “on the off-beat”, we would start our three-step on the 2 and finish it on the 4. That’s why in son people count 2,3,4 and 6,7,8. (A lot of people in Cuba, however, count 2,3,4 and 2,3,4 again because in a four-beat measure music like son/salsa/timba, musicians do not count past 4. When it gets to 4, the count loops back to 1.)
When people dance son, they usually use the clave pattern for their timing. I much better prefer the conga pattern, as I have argued for in this post. At any rate, dancing using contratiempo (son) timing looks like this:
I strongly suggest that you read the piece linked above because it clearly explains where the count in the music falls with your step.
What I really want you to get out of the video above is to notice that when each three-step is completed, the last step falls on the open tone—or the tun-tun sound—of the conga. That is, it falls on the four count. That makes total sense, if the three-step begins on the 2nd count because it’d be step (2), step (3), step (4). Remember this because that is going to be important for later.
Now let’s turn to salsa on 2. This is where things get trickier and a bit complicated because the way that it is often counted when dancing.
The first thing I want to do is show this video of Eddie Torres demonstrating the basic on 2 step. This method of teaching to dance on 2, I’m given to understand, is somewhat discontinued and not popular anymore. However, it does point out something very important: the on2 that Torres is teaching is exactly the same as the son contratiempo (which is also on 2, as we say). The short video is worth watching in its entirety because it explains a bit of music theory that everybody needs to know, but the really important part comes in at 2:16, when he explains how the footwork corresponds to the pattern of the conga. If you pay attention, you will notice that, just like son, the three-step ends with the open tone—the tun-tun—of the conga:
The timing that Eddie Torres is teaching to dance salsa on 2 and the timing of son are exactly the same.
Bu now let’s look at how on 2 salsa timing is taught today.
The explanation begins in the following video at 0:19. For now, watch it until 1:21.
Before I break down what is happening here, I want to remind you of something very basic. In your basic going forward and back on 1, if you’re a leader, your basic step is the following:
Forward with the left (1), then in place with the right (2), then back with the left (3). Pause on 4. Then back with the right (5), in place with the left (6), and forward with the right (7). Pause on 8. Please keep in mind for the reminder of the post that when I say “three-step”, this is what I mean.
Now let us break down what is happening in the video.
In the video, the instructor tells the leader to begin by stepping back with the left, and calls that the 1 count.
But here is the thing: stepping back with the left corresponds, in a basic forward and back step, to the three (3) count. That means that he is beginning to dance with the final step of the three-step which starts with the left foot.
Then count two is a break back with the right foot on the second count. This break with the right foot on the second count is why the dance receives the label of “on2.”
But count two is really the first step of the three-step that begins with the right. In other words, count 2 in on2 salsa would be count 5 in on1 salsa.
Count 3 is a step in place with the left, which in on1 would be count 6
So you see how the difference with the counting can mess with your head and confuse the hell out of you.
But that’s not all. Here is where it gets tricky.
In a basic three-step, we do three steps in quick succession, and then there is a pause. Those would be the four and eight counts. That’s the way we dance casino, son, or salsa. Step, step, step, pause. Step, step, step, pause. The pause always happens at the end of the three-step, either when we have finished stepping forward with the right (7) or back with the left (3).
In on 2 salsa, however, the pause happens in the middle of the three-step! You see, the 3 count in on2 salsa is the step in place with the left foot that would correspond to count 6 when danced on 1. On2 salsa dancers are finishing their three-step in a position in which the three step is not usually finished. And so the fourth count becomes this travelling step that really makes the third step of the what usually is the three-step take a longer time it usually takes. In other words, starting from the moment the right foot breaks on 2 and the three-step naturally begins, it becomes step (with the right), step (with the left), (longer) pause, and step (with the right).
The following video shows what I am explaining. As you watch it, here is what I want you to do. First, forget the count. Try not to listen to it. It will only confuse you. Instead, listen to the sound of the conga. When you step to the conga, the slap of the conga corresponds, musically, to count 2. The open tone to count 4. When you watch the video, you’ll see that the beginning of his three-step that starts with the right foot (forget how he is beginning, remember the bolded paragraph above) corresponds with the slap of the conga. So, in that sense, both son and salsa on 2 begin their basic right foot three-step on the slap of the conga (beat 2 in the music).
However, whereas the final step of a three-step in son happens on the open tone, the final step of the three-step in salsa on 2 happens right after the open tone. And this happens because of that pause in the middle of the three-step, which has dragged out the final step so that, instead of it falling on the open tone—as it should mathematically, because if you start your three-step on the slap (2), you will finish the three-step on open tone (4)—it falls after the open tone—that is, on the first beat.
Let’s go to the video. Start it at 3:58:
So, yes, theoretically, the timing of son and salsa on 2 are different. And we just saw why. That dragged-out third step—that final step back with the left or step forward with the right that ends the three-step—makes all the difference.
You can see the difference more clearly when you take the basic three-step that begins with the right foot and count using the musician’s count (starting on 1, and once you get to four, loop back to 1):
On 1 (casino or salsa) timing: Back (1), in place (2), forward (3) pause on (4), though it’s not really a “pause,” but mroe of a shift of weight.
Son timing: Back (2), in place (3), forward (4), pause on (1), though it’s not really a “pause,” but mroe of a shift of weight..
Salsa on2 timing: Back (2), in place (3), pause on (4) with a travelling step, forward (1).
However, in practice this difference is not so clear-cut.
Because on 2 salsa stops in the middle of the basic three-step and drags out the third step for longer than it usually requires, what ends up happening is that this, sometimes and for different reasons which fall outside of the scope of this post, becomes unsustainable and people end finishing the three-step on the open tone of the conga (4), resembling son timing, instead of after the open tone (1), which is what is theoriteically supposed to happen in on2 salsa.
The best way to tell that this is happening is, again, by listening to the music. The good thing about the following video is that no one is counting, so you won’t get confused. Now, as you watch the video, notice how the end of their three-step many times falls on the open tone of the conga—that is, it falls on the 4 beat, like in son’s contratiempo:
And so there you have it, folks. There is a difference in the timing of the steps between the two dances. But this difference works more in theory. In practice, what ends up happening sometimes is that the timing of salsa on2 overlaps with that of son. The overlap can happen often or seldom. Or it cannot. It really depends on the dancers. I’m sure that, if you look, you can find a totally pure on2 dancing video. But that is not the point. The point is that the overlap does happen. And when it does, it tends to confuse the people who dance son and make them ask themselves if there really is a difference.
Again: there is a difference. I don’t want people reading this and saying, “The timing of salsa on2 is really the son timing.” No.
But let’s also acknowledge that, at times, there is an overlap.
P.S. Special thanks to Zaid, a faithful reader of this blog whose inquisitive mind sparked the writing of this post.
P.S.S. Also a special thanks to Robert Rice, who pointed me to this video, which outlines the nuances between Power 2 and New York 2, etc. I would highly recommend watching it if you are still confused.
Son y Casino 
Hello Daybert,
Thanks once again for the post. I liked the way you concluded the whole discussion, comparing the theory and practice.
I think there is a typo in one of your statement:-
“The pause always happens at the end of the three-step, either when we have finished stepping forward with the right (5) or back with the left (6).”
It should be:-
“……………………………. finished stepping forward with the right (7) or back with the left (3).”
Thanks! Typo fixed. I hope the blog post made things clearer for you! Now you can direct your salsa friends to it when they say they are not stepping on the conga beat.
¡Tremendo! Como siempre. Gracias.
¡Me alegro que te haya servido!
Regarding the overlap………… This can be mechanical and it can be musical. Textbook technique for on2 dancing is to break step on2 and on6 while stepping 1,2,3 and 5,6,7. On2 dancers focus on hitting the 2 and the 6 with their break step just like Son dancers focus on accenting the 4 and the 8. For on2 dancers, there is overlap between stepping on the 4 and the 8 and stepping on the 1 and the 5, and so it can appear to unfamiliar dancers that they are stepping contra-tiempo(234). Most of the time this overlap is for mechanical reasons because of the constant movement of the on2 choreography. On2 dancers will sometimes step on the 4 and 8 depending on variables such as complexity of the turn patterns, intentional syncopations, obstacles on the dance floor, that might cause them to either step early or take additional steps. Sometimes the reasons are musical because of a song with a really strong open tone conga on the 4 and 8 that makes the NYon2 dancer want to step early.
The problem with Eddie Torres’ teaching has always been that his feet aren’t doing what his mouth and musical diagrams are saying. When he starts demonstrating how his footwork matches the music at 2:15 he is certainly practising what he preaches, but he is NOT in Son timing – he is stepping “a tiempo” (1,2,3 pause, 5, 6 7, pause). However by 2:25 after going through about six bars of music his feet have changed to Son timing (2, 3, 4 pause, 6, 7, 8 pause), also called Palladium-style mambo timing. Despite this his mouth is still counting 1, 2, 3 etc. Every other teacher of Eddie Torres style does exactly the same thing except some transition to Son timing sooner (some after only 1 or 2 bars of music!) and others later. I have NEVER seen a performance (social or choreographed) of the Eddie Torres dance style which can maintain the 1,2,3, pause, 5,6,7,pause with breaking (changing of direction) on the 2 and the 4 throughout an entire song. Your next video “Salsa Basic Step” shows exactly the same problem, although the follower tires hard to keep dancing Eddie Torres style the leader is into Son timing almost immediately – unfortunately my comments on this video questioning the teachers were met with outright denial, as well as some degree of hostility by other commenters. The bottom line is if teachers can’t get their musicality right then students can’t be expected to either. Sadly this style has become so accepted as a standard at teaching events around the world that this mis-taught musicality just gets spread further and further. I would never take or suggest others ever take a class in Eddie Torres New York style salsa unless the teacher understands, practises and teaches the difference between Eddie Torres and Palladium style.
I think Robert has summarized everything beautifully, and I think you base your entire article on one video of dubious teachings. I myself would strongly prefer to teach On2 as pure contratiempo, and then allow for some practical on-floor flexibility in timing depending on the music.
If a song has strong open conga tones, and especially, a strong bass tresillo accenting the 4 and 8, On2 dancers will be very close to Cuban contratiempo. If these notes are not strongly present, their step falls somewhere between 4/5 and 8/1 because of momentum and for the sake of fluidity they are trying to achieve, as there is no urge to mark the rhythm strictly.
There’s more than one video on which I’m basing my argument, as you can clearly see. Besides saying the same thing, the videos are representative of most on2 basic step videos you’ll find on YouTube, though you’re more than welcome to suggest another that you deem less dubious.
The closeness to contratiempo on the part of on2 dancers is exactly why I wrote this post. It confuses people who dance contratiempo when the see on2 dancers do their steps. So I’m writing with this audience in mind. Thanks for reading.
I believe I’m able to understand what you are trying to say. However, something that would greatly help my understanding would be to have a side by side (by side) video to the same tiempo/music highlighting the difference between son, on2 and “three-step”.
I would love that, too. Regrettably, I am not very technology savvy to make a video like that, nor am I getting paid any money to put time into making it. 🙂 Thanks for reading!
Son steps on a video needed.
Many nice and usefull comment, but not a single video that shows 4 simple bests and the steps.
Two short steps on 2-3 and the long step on 4. (1)
Somebody have such a video?
Br Ole
Denmark
All the videos that you are asking for are in this post.
Hi Daybert,
I’m a big fan of your articles. I’ve focused most of my time on Son, Casino, and other Cuban styles but I’ve recently decided to dip myself into the on2 to see what this timing fuss is about. There are a lot of things being said about on2 timing. Yes in the past, NY “Palladium Mambo” (interesting name…) was danced contratiempo. Today’s timing is just a tiny bit different. I want to explain some perspectives I’ve learned from some well-respected and accomplished on2 instructors as well as musicians. Excuse me as I haven’t watched each of the videos in the article, when I do I may modify what I have to say if it’s been covered.
I think you’ve acknowledged already how close to Son the on2 system as despite being counted as 123-567, given the breaking step is on the 2,6. When counting and stepping on top of 123-567 with the organization presented by many on2 dancers, it seems that there is a “rest” on the step in place after the break (the three or seven) which is confusing and admittedly a bit awkward for people transitioning from other popular ways of interpreting Cuban music and its derivatives in dance.
The count chosen for on2 teaching doesn’t intuitively represent the actual steps being done for those who have a deeper understanding of both the music and dance. While the teaching count for modern day on2 may be 123,567 on2 instructors well-versed in the dance and music actually step on 2,3,4.5 (the “and of 4)-6,7,8.5(“and of 8”). It’s easy to see why it’s easier/more practical to count 123,567 and anticipate an earlier step on before 1 and 5 than say “and of 4” and “and of 8” each time. It’s also easy to see how novice instructors who haven’t focused sufficiently on understanding these concepts may step on top of the 1 and 5 and begin teaching.
With this approach we find that the difference between Son timing and On2 becomes a mere 1/16 note(.5 of a dancers count) on each side of the basic. As Son may emphasize 2,4,6,8, this seems to help emphasize the 2 and 6 in a way Son doesn’t, as it blends (and arguably reduces the emphasis on) the 4.5 and 8.5 in a way that lends more emphasis to the shorter and more marked steps that follow, 2,3 and 6,7.This eliminates the awkwardness felt by pausing on 3 and 7 as a result of dancing directly on top of the 1 and 5 by allowing the basic to flow a little easier after the 2,3 and 6,7. Also important to note is that the 3 and 7 counts are not in place, but travelling in the direction initiated by the break, (another thing that is aided by having some extra time before your 2/6 by stepping on the 4.5/8.5 instead of 1/5, respectively). This system, relative to Son seems to leave more space in partnering for the types of turn patterns we see in salsa (makes sense since Son doesn’t typically use any turn patterns). I’m not entirely sure how this has developed maybe I’ll that’ll be the next thing for me to investigate.
It seems to me the 123,567 count was initially just a way to dumb down the steps for teaching. Interestingly it’s led to many undeveloped student-turned-teachers or teachers without a sufficient amount of competent competition to take this literally and make it the actual count when they begin teaching, usually somewhat precipitously. Teachers aware of the difference may sometimes count 2,3,and,6,7,and to convey that you shouldn’t actually step on 1 or 5.
I hope this lends some useful perspective if you haven’t heard it before, this is an old article so perhaps you have. Looking forward to more articles.
A personal observation:
-when dancing On2 ETorres style, it’s very easy to integrate mambo. Knowing his background, it makes sense to think that maaaybe his timing come from his love of Tito Puente. Pachanga also flows effortlessly, imh.
-when dancing on son timing, integrating cha cha cha feels quite natural but switching back and forth to mambo feels harder.
Perhaps there is an explanation to this or maybe it’s just my brain.
In any case, my favorite is son timing. Unfortunately, as a follower, I rarely come across it during NY style socials. When I sense that my lead “gets” the music, and if the song is right, I might invite them to try 234 678. It actually works most of the time.
As for casino on contratiempo… that’s The Holy Grail. I know only a handful of dancers who do it. Most people don’t bother, alas.